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Remove NPC Demand for Minerals

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Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:19:00 - [1] I doubt that there is enough player demand for minerals to cover the player supply for minerals because theres not enough player demand for goods going on. Prices will crash and players still will not be able to offload their minerals. Players simply produce ways more minerals than they consume. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 12/11/2003 19:32:47 Quote: The new players wouldn't be significantly affected as there are missions and bounties which would remain unaffected given the level of income we're talking here. We're not talking about a difference of millions after all. As for too many miners in the economy? Yes, there are. But the NPCs buying minerals keep the natural system of Supply vs Demand from controlling the number of miners. Ofcourse I have no numbers, but missiones and bounties I believe to be insignificant to the amount of minerals people mine. Yes, too many miners in the economy, but I dont think peoples profession choice should be controlled by supply and demand in a game. Albeit I dont think people really want to mine and mine and mine and mine and mine... I just want to see more pull in the economy, more player demand for things before the NPC economy is removed or reduced, reduced I think more credible. The devs should have the numbers, is the player economy balanced? player demand roughly similar to player supply? I dont think its there. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:34:00 - [3] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 12/11/2003 19:37:21 Neah, theyre not moving it to you, but if they did, theyd overwhelm you with minerals. Perhaps some tweaking could be tried, halve prices and total demand for units? Oh, and Interbus was on its way..errr...soon. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:54:00 - [4] I just mean 300 mil, and any other 100's of mil by any other producer will be dwarfed by huge mineral supply which I believe exists. I believe it exists because I cant see how there is sufficient player demand in this economy without things breaking and no war going on. Why are people buying things? They buy something once...then its there, like forever! Jash, yes, supply and demand balance themselves out, but its dangerous because its a game and unlike the real world, poor people can quit! ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 23:06:00 - [5] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 12/11/2003 23:12:36 Quote: Yes, manufacturing is not as profitable as selling the minerals to NPCs would be; but the problem isn't caused by the existance of the NPC buy orders, but by the massive over-supply of minerals resulting in the market saturation on finished goods. Consider; when NPCs buy minerals, the minerals are removed from the game and re-enter the "respawn" pool. If the NPCs didn't buy minerals; everything that has been sold to NPCs in the past would have instead been sold to builders, increasing in yet more market saturation on finished goods. The fix you propose would make the situation worse. Simply put; the solution to the problem is to resolve the over-supply of minerals; by, (for example) eliminating risk free mining endeavours such as AFK indies/Macro BS's in high security systems. Spread out the miners; spread out the mineral availability; spread out the market. And do abolish the super-highway; it serves no useful purpose that I can determine. Thats almost what I've been saying. Except the solution is not to decrease the supply as many want. The proper thing to do is to generate demand. Demand should be pushing things beyond NPC rates, trit should be well beyond 1 ISK per unit. Once that happens, the NPC demand is irrelvent because the real solution to the problem rests in player demand. The only problem with supply comes in with manufactured supply, because everyone bought their BPs at a fixed price without reflecting market worth. This unnecessarily skewed the supply/demand equation heavily towards supply while demand at the top for finished products remained small. I dont see super highways ruining anything, only that they expose the problem so we can see it. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 23:18:00 - [6] He said that they should go NPC hunting or agent missions which would mean fewer miners, which means less mineral supply which means better prices for the fewer miners. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 23:23:00 - [7] good insight hematic. labs and factory slots, as well as corp slots need to be auction, like BPs should have been. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 23:37:00 - [8] small office you can have. Sony want the big office in the strategic locations, and they'll pay for that. Helps to remove cash from the system and part of the economic equation. Youre small, you get small office, in not so prime time area, but you still have a chance to work up. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 23:57:00 - [9] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 13/11/2003 00:05:35 Quote: Quote: small office you can have. Sony want the big office in the strategic locations, and they'll pay for that. Helps to remove cash from the system and part of the economic equation. Youre small, you get small office, in not so prime time area, but you still have a chance to work up. That's assuming that Sony don't also decide to buy up the small offices in the "not so prime time areas" and use them to distibute their goods and enforce their monopoly. Why would they not? .. it prevents the possibility of them being undercut, after all. I wouldnt rely on their good will no. But with auctions you dont have to. Sony wont buy up all the other offices because they cant. The one (or two) prestigious office cost them too much. Same theory goes with BP auctions. You get the mega corps battle it out with the big money for the best BP, which keeps their resources in a tight rein and forces them to behave in a economically reasonable manner. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 00:07:00 - [10] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 13/11/2003 00:09:34 Quote: What you're seeing are the results of an oversupply of minerals in the region. You say over-supply, I say weak-demand ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way

Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 00:22:00 - [11] Quote: Not the case; as was proven early in retail when it became impossible to get a factory/laboratory due to them being universally rented by a small number of people who didn't want other people undercutting them. They were not auctioned and the prices were cheap. Not comparable. Quote: Or, you have 10 corporations with the same BP battling it out via Mineral Efficiency research to undercut one another and still make profit. Monopolies are never a good thing. I dont understand you. Im not sure you understand me. Original game design by the devs was that 3 or 5 original copies of a BP would be auctioned. Corporations who wanted the BPs have to compete with each other to buy them. This means the corp pays as much money as they can to get a BP rather than someone else take. This means almost all their money went into merely buying the BP, hopeing that it would pay off. Mind you, original game design was also that these BPs could be researchable for improving their stats, and not just production/mineral efficiency. This meant, in effect, each company would be producing a similar, yet relatively unique product of unique capabilities. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 00:28:00 - [12] Quote: Quote: You say over-supply, I say weak-demand Not the case; there is currently an over-supply of minerals and a strong demand for more minerals. While this is great for the miners; (which encourages more people to mine, adding to the over-supply) it results in so much supply that the builders can rely on the quantity of sales rather than the quality of the profit margins; meaning that vast amounts of manufactured goods hit the market with virtually no profit markup. Over supply and strong demand seems rather contradictary? Do you mean distribution and logistics problems now? The reason why theres no profit mark up is because people are not buying the finished goods, which means alot of supply but no demand. I saw blackbirds across the board once steadily going down and hovering at 2.1 mil for a week. Then a major war broke out and theyre now over 3 mil again, but slowly decreseing. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:11:00 - [13] Quote: That's the average price of the minerals actually sold in the region. Which can still be manipulated ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:48:00 - [14] Quote: CCP is already aware that item degradation is required. The only concern I have on that standpoint, now that they finally admit what people have been saying since beta, ...saying since before beta. And it wont carry everything on its own either. Things need to consume other things, like charges, ammo. People still trade in missiles, they get used and have to be bought again. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 06:37:00 - [15] Quote: Quote: Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 13/11/2003 00:09:34 Quote: What you're seeing are the results of an oversupply of minerals in the region. You say over-supply, I say weak-demand Demand from? More players (where?) Or Higher risk causing ship loss? (Hear screams?) or Wear and tear (So high that it causes demand for new items? I think not) Demand for items - many items, is very low for good reason, everybody makes their own, there is no market to sell these items, no demand. Blame BPCs and highways. Highways are a problem, not just a means to visualise a problem - look at plaeyr distribution and the eradication of regionalised markets (though the de-specificatio of NPC drone loot didnt help either) Bad moves on bad moves - compounded errors. Yes yes yes, tho I do still take issue with highways. The problem would still be there without them, only its alot more obvious now by making all the parts of Eve economy into one place. But nevermind, whatever it is, removing NPC demand wont solve anything. Prices will just get cheaper, goods will get even cheaper, and players still wont buy 'em. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 06:45:00 - [16] Quote: Quote: Over supply and strong demand seems rather contradictary? Do you mean distribution and logistics problems now? I mean that there is an over-supply of minerals caused by massive mining up in Empire space; which has encouraged builders to set up shop up there, buy every mineral they can (strong demand) and flood the market with finished goods at a razor-thin profit margin; just because they can. I dont see a problem with that at all. It is normal that production moves to suppliers and to customers, and that there are cheap products in this area. It is cheap here, so that others are supposed to buy them and distribute at a marked up price to outlaying areas. Only this model should really be in reverse, production and supply should be in 0.0 space and demand in the core systems. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 06:51:00 - [17] One thing that has not been mentioned. Players would accept higher prices on finished goods because many players are incredibly wealthy now. Cruiers for a couple of mil? They can afford that easily, cruisers at the high NPC prices would be perfectly fine. If players manufacturers raised their prices, they could then afford to raise the prices of how much their willing to pay for minerals, which would cancel any NPC affect on the market. Only that players simply do not want these products in sufficient numbers. Manufacturers have been slashing prices but they still cannot sell all their goods. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way

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